>>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY -- JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

>>> GOOD EVENING, I'M JACK FORD.

DECEMBER 1st IS WORLD AIDS DAY AND WE'RE SHINING A LIGHT ON SOMEONE WHO WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO SOME OF THOSE MOST AFFECTED BY THE AIDS EPIDEMIC AND THE STIGMA SURROUNDING IT.

YOUNG, QUEER, PEOPLE OF COLOR.

GEORGE M. JOHNSON IS A NONBINARY JOURNALIST, AUTHOR, AND ACTIVIST WHO HAS RECENTLY PUBLISHED TWO MEMOIRS TARGETED TOWARDS YOUNG ADULTS ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE GROWING UP QUEER AND BLACK IN AMERICA.

THE MEMOIRS HAVE CAUSED SOME CONTROVERSY AND ACTUALLY BEEN BANNED IN SOME PUBLIC SCHOOL LIBRARIES DUE TO THEIR SUBJECT MATTER.

BUT JOHNSON IS DETERMINED TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERY YOUNG PERSON STRUGGLING WITH THEIR OWN IDENTITY IS ABLE TO READ ABOUT EXPERIENCES THEY CAN RELATE TO AND KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE.

JOINING US TO DISCUSS THEIR MEMOIRS AND SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS ON WORLD EIGHTH DAY IS GEORGE M. JOHNSON, LGBTQ ACTIVIST AND AUTHOR OF "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE AND WE ARE NOT BROKEN."

GEORGE, WELCOME, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

>> TALK ABOUT WRITING THESE BOOKS, THEY ARE DEEPLY PERSONAL.

YOU CAN TELL THEY ARE IN SOME INSTANCES DEEPLY PAINFUL.

SO I DECIDE TO SHARE SUCH STORIES WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC?

>> FOR ME IT WAS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE NEXT GENERATION OF YOUTH, SPECIFICALLY BLACK QUEER YOUTH, QUEER YOU'D OF COLOR, HAD STORIES AND HAD TEXTS AND WERE ABLE TO READ ABOUT EXPERIENCES THAT WERE LIKE THEIR OWN.

I DIDN'T WANT TO SEE ANOTHER GENERATION LIKE MYSELF WHERE I DIDN'T FEEL SEEN, I DIDN'T FEEL HEARD, I WAS STRUGGLING WITH IDENTITY AND ALL OF THESE THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD OF WHETHER I WAS VALID, WHETHER MY EXISTENCE WAS VALID.

AND SO I KNEW THAT IT MEANT THAT I NEEDED TO REALLY SHARE MY STORY IN A WAY THAT CONNECTED WITH YOUNG ADULTS ON A PERSONAL LEVEL SO THAT THEY KNEW THAT SOMEONE IN THIS WORLD DOES EXIST OUT HERE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH MANY OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH.

THE QUOTE THAT I LIVE BY IS TONI MORRISON'S, IF THERE'S A BOOK THAT YOU WANT TO READ AND HADN'T BEEN WRITTEN YET, THEN YOU MUST WRITE IT.

SO I WROTE THE BOOK THAT I WISHED I HAD A CHANCE TO READ AS A YOUNG ADULT.

AND IN TURN I AM WATCHING, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD OF PEOPLE REALLY, REALLY TUNE IN AND COME INTO A WORLD THAT THEY NEVER KNEW EXISTED.

I KNEW IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT I WAS EXTREMELY VULNERABLE.

BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT YOUTH TO GO THROUGH THE SAME THINGS THAT I WENT THROUGH.

AND I KNEW THAT IF I KEPT ANY PARTS OUT OF IT, THAT ONLY POTENTIALLY MEANT THAT SOMEONE WOULD GO THROUGH IT BECAUSE I DIDN'T SHARE THE INFORMATION OR GIVE THEM THE RESOURCES SO THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT.

AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT CREATED "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE AND WE ARE NOT BROKEN."

>> WAS THERE ANY PLACE GROWING UP AS A YOUNG QUEER PERSON OF COLOR, ANY PLACE FOR YOU TO TURN TO FOR THOUGHTS OR GUIDANCE OR SHARED EXPERIENCES?

>> NO.

YOU KNOW, TO BE HONEST, NO.

I GREW UP IN THE -- AS A TEENAGER IN THE LATE '90s, EARLY 2000s, AND REALISTICALLY WE HAD VERY -- FEW REPRESENTATION ON TELEVISION NO REPRESENTATION REALLY IN SCHOOL BOOKS.

AND I BELIEVE THAT REALISTICALLY, WHEN I LOOK BACK AT HIGH SCHOOL, I HAD ONE FRIEND WHO I KNEW WAS LIKE ME, BUT I THINK EVEN BOTH OF US WERE JUST TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT AND AFRAID TO SHARE THAT EXPERIENCE, WHICH I WROTE ABOUT IN THE BOOK.

REALISTICALLY, THOUGH, I DID HAVE QUEER EXPERIENCES AT HOME BECAUSE I DID GROW UP WITH A COUSIN WHO WAS TRANSGENDER.

MY NORMAL WAS HAVING TRANS PEOPLE AT THE COOKOUTS AND QUEER PEOPLE AT OUR FUNCTIONS.

AND IT REALLY WASN'T UNTIL I GOT INTO THE REAL WORLD, AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY I GOT INTO THE REAL WORLD BECAUSE MY FAMILY IS THE REAL WORLD.

BUT UNTIL I GOT INTO SOCIETY OUTSIDE OF MY FAMILY WAS WHEN I REALIZED THAT EVERY OTHER FAMILY DIDN'T HAVE THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF DYNAMIC.

AND SO IT WAS REALLY LIKE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF LIKE THOSE TWO THINGSS JUXTAPOSED, WHERE MY FAMILY WAS ALL ABOUT -- I COULD SEE REPRESENTATION, EVEN IF I DIDN'T HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

BUT WHEN I GOT OUTSIDE OF MY FAMILY, THERE WAS NOTHING THERE FOR ME.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TWO BOOKS.

THE FIRST ONE IS "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE."

I'M ALWAYS FASCINATED BY TITLES OF BOOKS.

>> YES.

>> AND AUTHORS FINDING THE RIGHT EXPRESSION TO REPRESENT WHAT'S CONTAINED WITHIN THOSE PAGES.

SO WHY "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE"?

>> YEAH.

I TELL A FUNNY STORY AT THE BEGINNING OF "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" HOW WHEN I WAS BORN, MY AUNT SARAH SAW ME CRYING AND RAN OUT OF THE ROOM BECAUSE I HAD A HEAD FULL OF HAIR, SHE TOLD EVERYBODY, "IT'S A GIRL, IT'S A GIRL."

WHEN SHE CAME BACK IN THE ROOM, I WAS FULLY IN THE WORLD, SHE REALIZED THAT SHE HAD MADE A MISTAKE, HAD TO GO BACK OUT AND TELL EVERYONE, "IT'S A BOY, IT'S A BOY."

I TELL THAT STORY IN THE INTRODUCTION TO KIND OF SAY HOW, EVEN THAT EARLY ON, THIS DETERMINATION OF WHETHER IT'S A BOY OR IT'S A GIRL SENDS CHILDREN DOWN TWO PATHWAYS AND TWO ROADS.

WHERE THEIR IMPRESSIONS WOMEN LOOK DIFFERENT, RIGHT?

IF I WAS BORN, LET'S SAY, FEMALE AT BIRTH, THAT AUTOMATICALLY MEANT THAT I WAS GOING TO MAKE LESS MONEY THAN A MAN.

IT AUTOMATICALLY MEANT THAT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH MISOGYNY.

IT AUTOMATICALLY MEANT I WAS SENT DOWN A PATH OF CERTAIN STRUCTURES IN SOCIETY.

BUT WHEN YOU COME OUT AS -- THEY DEEM YOU TO BE MALE OR A BOY, THEN IT MEANS THAT I HAVE TO HAVE MASCULINITY.

I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY FOOTBALL.

I HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO DO BOY THINGS AND SPORTS.

WHEN I SAY ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE, I ALWAYS SAY, YOU KNOW, MY AUNT WAS SAYING, IT'S A GIRL, IT'S A GIRL, IT'S A BOY, IT'S A BOY.

EVEN THOUGH AT THE END OF THE DAY I WAS DETERMINED TO BE A BOY, I WAS DETERMINED TO BE MALE, THEY STILL KIND OF GOT BOTH ANYWAY.

SO WHEN I SAY ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE, IT'S SIMPLY TO SAY WHEN SOMEONE IS DEEMED A BOY, THE PATHWAY ISN'T GOING TO ALWAYS LOOK LIKE THE COLOR BLUE, AND SOMETIMES IT MAY LOOK PINK, SOMETIMES IT MAY LOOK YELLOW, SOMETIMES IT MAY LOOK DIFFERENT AND THAT MASCULINITY CANNOT BE JUST ONE MONOLITHIC THING.

SO THAT'S REALLY THE MEANING BEHIND THAT.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR SECOND BOOK IN A MOMENT, "WE'RE NOT BROKEN."

LET'S FOCUS ON "ALL BOYS ARE NOT BLUE."

WHAT ARE THE MESSAGES THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THAT BOOK?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE OVERARCHING THEME IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO LIVE AT THE INTERSECTION OF BLACKNESS AND QUEERNESS.

HOW, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF YOUR BLACKNESS, YOU ARE HAVING TO NAVIGATE A SOCIETY OF ANTI-BLACKNESS AND RACISM, EVEN AS A YOUTH.

BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR QUEERNESS, YOU ARE ALSO RUNNING INTO PROBLEMS EVEN WITHIN MY OWN COMMUNITY OF HOMOPHOBE YEAH RIGHT?

SO IT JUST SHOWCASES HOW WHEN YOU HAVE INTERSECTING IDENTITIES, YOU DEAL WITH A MULTI-LAYERED OPPRESSION AT TIMES WHERE YOU CAN BE, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE FIGHT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE YOUR COMMUNITY, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE FIGHT WITH PEOPLE WITHIN YOUR COMMUNITY.

BECAUSE OF YOUR INTERSECTING IDENTITIES.

I THINK THAT'S THE OVERARCHING THEME.

THEN UNDERNEATH THAT, YOU GET INTO IDENTITY, SEXUALITY, GENDER.

YOU KNOW, IT DOES COVER RACISM AND ANTI-BLACKNESS.

BUT ALSO KIND OF A REFRAMING OF HISTORY AS WELL AS DISCUSSING AGENCY WHEN YOU ARE A YOUTH.

AND SO IT DOES COVER MANY, MANY HEAVY THEME AND HOW THEY ALL PLAY A ROLE.

I ALWAYS SAY, WE DEEM CERTAIN TOPICS TOO HEAVY FOR THE YOUTH EVEN THOUGH THE YOUTH ALREADY EXPERIENCE THOSE TOPICS.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" REALLY IS.

IT REALLY IS SHOWCASING THAT EVEN WHEN YOU KEEP CERTAIN TOPICS AWAY FROM YOUTH, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WON'T EXPERIENCE THEM, IT JUST MEANS THEY WON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES OR KNOWLEDGE TO KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM WHEN THEY ARISE.

THAT'S REALLY THE OVERARCHING THEME OF "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" AND FAMILY.

FAMILY IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THING TO ME.

>> WHAT ABOUT "WE'RE NOT BROKEN"?

WHY FEEL THAT THERE IS A NEED TO DO A SECOND BOOK, TO LOOK INTO THESE ISSUES THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED TO US?

>> YES.

"WE'RE NOT BROKEN."

IT COMES FROM A DIFFERENT LENS.

SO I ALWAYS SAY, BASICALLY, "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" IS THE MICRO, IT'S ME, THE MICRO EXPERIENCE.

"WE ARE NOT BROKEN" IS THE MACRO, MY FAMILY, PEOPLE EXISTING AROUND ME, GETTING TO GET CENTER STAGE AND HAVE THEIR SAY IN THE BOOK.

WHICH IS WHY IN "WE ARE NOT BROKEN," EACH OF THE GRANDCHILDREN WRITE A LETTER TO MY DEARLY DEPARTED GRANDMOTHER, NANNY.

IT'S WHY -- "WE ARE NOT BROKEN" IS A LOVE LETTER TO HER.

SHE IS ALL THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.

I OPEN EACH CHAPTER WITH ONE OF HER SAYINGS THAT WE CALL NANNYISMS AND HAVE STORIES THAT ARE BUILT UPON HOW THOSE LESSONS SHE IMPARTED ON US PLAYED A ROLE THROUGHOUT OUR LIFE, BECAUSE IT DOES GO FROM OUR CHILDHOOD ALL THE WAY THROUGH ADULTHOOD IN MANY WAYS WITH SOME OF THE STORYTELLING.

I REALLY THINK -- IT TALKS ABOUT THE BLACK GRANDMOTHER EXPERIENCE.

HOW BLACK GRANDMOTHERS SPECIFICALLY HAD TO REALLY, REALLY SAVE BLACK COMMUNITY.

BECAUSE WE WERE GOING THROUGH AN HIV EPIDEMIC WHILE GOING THROUGH MASS INCARCERATION, WHILE ALSO GOING THROUGH A CRACK EPIDEMIC.

WE OFTEN LOOK AT THOSE THREE THINGS AS THREE DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT THEY ALL WERE AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ALL AFFECTED THE BLACK FAMILY.

IT WAS BLACK GRANDMOTHERS WHO STEPPED UP TO KEEP FAMILY TOGETHER.

THAT'S WHO MY GRANDMOTHER WAS.

IT'S A LOVE LETTER TO HER, TO BLACKNESS, TO THE BLACK FAMILY DYNAMIC.

>> CERTAINLY IF SHE WERE ABLE TO BE HERE TODAY, I AM SURE THAT SHE WOULD DO THAT AS A LOVE LETTER AND EMBRACE IT AS A LOVE LETTER FOR WHAT YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH.

IT HAS THAT POWER AND FEEL TO IT.

I'VE SEEN THE BOOKS DESCRIBED AS NOT JUST MEMOIRS BUT MANIFESTOS.

MANIFESTO, STATEMENT OF POLICY, AIMS MOVING FORWARD.

IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION?

>> YES.

I WAS VERY, VERY -- WHEN I SAID THAT "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" WAS A MANIFESTO, I REMEMBER ONE INTERVIEW, THE INTERVIEW WAS LIKE, THAT'S A LOT OF AUDACITY FOR YOUR DEBUT, TO SAY IT'S A MANIFESTO.

AND I WAS LIKE, BUT I KNEW IT WAS SPECIAL.

I KNEW IT.

WHEN I WROTE IT, WHEN I FINALIZED IT, I WAS LIKE, THIS BOOK IS VERY SPECIAL.

EVERYBODY MAY NOT SEE IT AT THE BEGINNING BUT AT SOME POINT, EVERYBODY'S GOING TO SEE THAT THIS BOOK IS REALLY, REALLY SPECIAL.

AND I CAN -- I THINK NOW, WATCHING IT BE BANNED AS WELL, I THINK THE POINT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THIS BOOK IS A MANIFESTO.

BECAUSE IT IS A DECLARATION OF A STORY, IN MY OPINION, THAT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED BUT RARELY EVER GETS TOLD.

AND I THINK IT IS A PUSHBACK AGAINST THE NOTION OF HOW QUEERNESS HAS EXISTED AND HOW BLACK QUEER PEOPLE -- PEOPLE LIKE TO SAY IT'S A NEW THING.

PEOPLE LIKE TO SAY IT'S A CHOICE.

EVEN IF IT WAS A CHOICE, IT WOULD STILL BE PERFECTLY FINE, BUT THIS BOOK REALLY, REALLY PUSHES BACK AGAINST A LOT OF THE SOCIETAL OPINIONS AND REALLY GIVES A TRUE FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT WHICH IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, THROUGH THE ACTUAL LENS OF THE PERSON EXPERIENCING IT.

AND YEAH, IT REALLY HAS BECOME A MANIFESTO FOR MANY.

>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE BOOKS AS BEING TARGETED TOWARDS YOUNG PERSONS, I'M WONDERING IF WE MIGHT BE MAYBE BETTER SUITED TO SAY, IT'S CERTAINLY TARGETING YOUNG ADULTS, BUT IT'S RELEVANT FOR ANYBODY OF ANY AGE.

OF ANY COLOR.

OF ANY IDENTITY.

WOULD THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY DOES.

IT'S A UNIVERSAL STORY.

I ALWAYS SAY, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCES AS MINE, READING THE BOOK, I'VE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE, SPECIFICALLY WHITE MOTHERS OF CHILDREN, OLDER, THE OLDER POPULATION, SENIOR CITIZENS WHO HAVE READ THE BOOK -- THE BOOK, BECAUSE IT STILL HAS UNIVERSAL THEMES, AND SO OVERALL THE BOOK STILL HAS SPACES AND WAYS IN WHICH IT DOES TOUCH UPON THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN IDENTIFY WITH IN THEIR OWN LIVES.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS -- I HAD AN OLDER WHITE WOMAN WHO BASICALLY WAS LIKE, YOUR GRANDMOTHER REMINDS ME OF MY GRANDMOTHER.

SHE'S LIKE, I KNOW WE DON'T SHARE ANYTHING, LIKE I'M A WHITE JEWISH WOMAN, I KNOW WE POSSIBLY DON'T HAVE THE SAME LIVED EXPERIENCE.

SHE WAS LIKE, I WAS READING ABOUT YOUR GRANDMOTHER IN THESE BOOKS, AND IT JUST FELT LIKE MY GRANDMOTHER.

SO SHE WAS LIKE, SHE WAS -- SHE WAS LIKE, I FELT, GOING INTO READING THEM, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING IN COMMON.

SHE WAS LIKE, I CAME OUT OF IT REALIZING, WE ARE MUCH MORE ALIKE THAN WE ARE DIFFERENT.

BECAUSE OUR EXPERIENCES SOMETIMES HAVE THESE OVERLAPPING THEMES THAT WE DON'T RECOGNIZE BECAUSE NOBODY TALKS ABOUT THEM IN THAT WAY.

SO YEAH, THE BOOK IS STILL A UNIVERSAL THEMED BOOK.

I ALWAYS SAY WE HAVE TO EXIST WITH BLACK QUEER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

SO IT ONLY MAKES SENSE THAT WE LEARN ABOUT THOSE EXPERIENCES, BECAUSE AS A BLACK QUEER PERSON, I AM EXPECTED TO LEARN ABOUT EVERYBODY ELSE'S.

SO YEAH, I THINK IT'S ONLY FAIR WE LEARN ABOUT EXPERIENCES OF PEOPLE WHO ALSO EXIST WITH US.

>> THAT'S WHAT YOU MENTIONED A FEW MOMENTS AGO AND I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION, THE IDEA OF THE BOOK BEING BANNED IN SOME PUBLIC SCHOOL LIBRARIES IN A NUMBER OF STATES.

DID YOU HAVE ANY ANTICIPATION ABOUT THAT?

>> YES.

>> WHY?

WHY DID YOU THINK THEY THEN THAT IT MIGHT HAPPEN?

>> YEAH, IT WASN'T -- IT WASN'T A MIGHT, I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

BEFORE THE BOOK CAME OUT, MY TEAM WILL TELL YOU, WE HAD A MEETING, I TOLD THEM, AT SOME POINT THE BOOK IS GOING TO GET BANNED.

I'M GOING TO BE VERY, VERY PREPARED WHEN IT HAPPENS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT IF IT HAPPENS, IT'S WHEN IT HAPPENS.

I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO GET BANNED BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY TO TURN MY STORY INTO A STORY OF SAVIORSHIP, THERE WAS NO WAY TO TURN THIS STORY INTO A WHITE SURVIVALIST STORY.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF QUEER TEXTS THAT ARE WRITTEN BY WHITE PEOPLE FOR YOUNG ADULTS THAT HAVE NEVER WENT THROUGH THE SCRUTINY AS MINE HAS, WHETHER FICTION OR NONFICTION.

WE HAVE SEEN THOSE TEXTS BECOME MOVIES, LIKE "LOVE, SIMON."

THERE ARE TEXTS THAT DEAL WITH SIMILAR THEMES AS MINE THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN QUESTIONED FOR YOUNG ADULTS.

>> SO DO YOU THINK THAT -- IF YOU WERE A WHITE QUEER PERSON WHO WROTE "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" AND "WE ARE NOT BROKEN," DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HAVE HAD AN IMPACT?

>> IT WOULD HAVE WON A PULITZER.

IT'S JUST THE HONEST TRUTH.

IF I HAD WRITTEN THIS AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, I WOULD HAVE BEEN HERALDED AS -- AND I SAID THIS IN ANOTHER INTERVIEW, THEY WOULD HAVE SAID, THIS IS GOING TO BE THE RYAN MURPHY OF PUBLISHING.

THAT'S WHAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HERALDED AS THIS STORY AND THIS WHITE QUEER COMING-OF-AGE STORY THAT SHOWS HOW WHITE PEOPLE CAN BE OPPRESSED TOO WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES.

YOU KNOW, LIKE WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, RIGHT?

BUT BECAUSE IT'S COMING FROM A BLACK QUEER LENS, THERE WAS NO SPACE FOR THIS STORY NOT TO BE BANNED.

AND THE STORY IS NONFICTION.

I ALWAYS SAY, THERE'S AN INTERESTING THING WITH FICTION AND NONFICTION, BECAUSE WHEN A FICTION STORY -- "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" WAS A FICTION STORY, IT MAY NOT HAVE GOTTEN THE SAME AMOUNT OF SCRUTINY.

BECAUSE FICTION STORIES, PEOPLE GET TO SIT BACK AND SAY, "OH MY GOD, I CAN'T IMAGINE THIS HAPPENING."

NONFICTION STORIES, YOU HAVE TO SIT AND ACTUALLY LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY, "OH MY GOD, THIS DID HAPPEN, AND I MAY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE IN SOMEONE'S ACTUAL OPPRESSION."

WHEREAS A FICTION STORY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT IN THAT WAY.

YOU JUST THINK ABOUT IT AS, OH MY GOD, HOW DO WE PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING?

A NONFICTION STORY, IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED.

NOW I'M CALLING YOU OUT, CALLING YOU IN TO WHAT YOU DID.

AND SO I THINK THAT ALSO PLAYED A ROLE IN THAT IT MAKES IT MUCH HARDER TO DENY BECAUSE THE PERSON WHO IS WRITING THE STORY IS STILL ALIVE, STILL EXISTS.

AND I THINK EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BANS, THAT WAS THE PART THEY WEREN'T EXPECTING WAS ME TO GO ON THE OFFENSIVE.

ALL RIGHT?

YOU CAN ATTACK A TONI MORRISON BOOK BECAUSE SHE'S NO LONGER HERE.

YOU ATTACK MY BOOK AND I'M STILL HERE, AND YOU ALSO HAD I GUESS THE MINDSET THAT I ALSO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT OR WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO REACT, OR THE ASSUMPTION THAT I WOULD REACT IN A WAY THAT WAS ABRASIVE OR NONARTICULATE.

>> SO WHAT HAS YOUR REACTION BEEN, AND WHAT ARE THE STEPS THAT YOU'VE TAKEN TO TRY TO COMBAT THIS BAN?

>> YEAH, SO MY REACTION HAS BEEN TO, ONE, GO ON THE OFFENSIVE.

TWO, MAKE IT A NATIONAL ISSUE.

THEY WERE DOING IT ON A VERY, VERY STRATEGIC, LOCAL LEVEL THING.

IF YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION, IT WAS JUST LIKE, THIS LOCALE BANNED THE BOOK, THEN THIS LOCALE BANNED THE BOOK.

BUT IT WASN'T BEING CONNECTED THAT IT WAS ONE GROUP THAT WAS DOING THIS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO LIVE THE BOOKS BANNED ACROSS SEVERAL STATES.

ONCE I MADE A TWEET SAYING, MY BOOK'S BANNED IN EIGHT STATES, AND I HAVE A LOT OF JOURNALISTS WHO FOLLOW, IT BROUGHT A LOT OF ATTENTION TO IT.

BECAUSE PEOPLE WEREN'T REALIZING THEY WERE DOING IT ON THIS LOCAL ATTACK.

AND SO NATIONALIZING THE ISSUE IS REALLY WHAT BROUGHT SO MUCH ATTENTION TO IT, WHICH THEN, IN MY OPINION, WHAT IS LED TO THE CRIMINAL COMPLAINT THAT WAS FILED AGAINST THE BOOK AND AGAINST ME.

I GUESS IT WAS LIKE PLAN "B," LET'S TRY AND USE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

BECAUSE THIS SYSTEM ISN'T WORKING BECAUSE GEORGE HAS NOW PUBLICIZED THIS, SO LET'S TRY TO USE THIS SYSTEM.

THE REAL THING I DID, I JUST MADE SOME VIDEOS GIVING PEOPLE TIPS AND TOOLS OF HOW YOU FIGHT BANS.

I STARTED WORKING WITH THE STUDENTS TO HELP THEM WITH THEIR PETITIONS, TO HELP THEM PROTEST.

THE ACLU STEPPED IN TO, YOU KNOW, FIGHT WITH FIRST AMENDMENT STUDENT RIGHTS.

WE'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THE BOOKS RETURN TO SHELVES IN TWO OF THE STATES.

WE HAVE A LOT MORE STATES TO GO.

BUT YEAH, IT WAS ABOUT BEING STRATEGIC AND STAYING MEASURED.

NOT ALLOWING THEM TO PUSH MY BUTTONS THAT I GOT TO A PLACE OF RAGE AND THAT I STAYED IN THIS PLACE OF CALM AND I STAYED IN THIS PLACE OF KNOWING WHAT MY JOB WAS AND WHAT MY PURPOSE WAS AND DOING IT IN A WAY THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO VILLAINIZE ME AS WE OFTEN SEE HAPPEN IF A BLACK PERSON LIKE MYSELF IS CHALLENGING WHITE WOMEN SPECIFICALLY.

>> AS YOU SAID, BANNING BOOKS DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE EXPERIENCES WON'T STILL BE THERE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

IT MEANS THAT THEY WON'T HAVE A RESOURCE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> I HAD SEEN THAT THE ACTRESS GABRIELLE UNION REPORTEDLY DEVELOPING "ALL BOYS AREN'T BLUE" INTO A TV SERIES.

I KNOW IT'S EARLY AND IT WOULD BE HARD TO TALK ABOUT DETAILS ON IT.

BUT JUST WHAT DOES THAT NOTION MEAN TO YOU AND YOUR VOICE, YOUR ABILITY TO EXPAND YOUR VOICE?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

I ACTUALLY HAVE A CALL WITH THEM TODAY TO DISCUSS IT MORE.

IT IS MOVING FORWARD INTO THE NEXT BIG PHASE.

SO EVERYBODY NEEDS TO STAY TUNED BECAUSE WE'RE ACTUALLY MOVING FORWARD INTO THE REALLY BIG PHASE OF IT.

>> WE'LL BE HERE.

>> THERE WILL BE AN ANNOUNCEMENT EARLY NEXT YEAR ABOUT IT.

BUT IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE, ONE, EVERYBODY DOESN'T LEARN THE SAME WAY.

AND SOME PEOPLE DO LEARN THROUGH READING BOOKS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE VISUAL LEARNERS.

SO I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND THE NEED TO TAKE TEXTS, ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT TEXTS, AND TURN THEM INTO OTHER WORKS OF CREATIVE AND OTHER WORKS OF BLACK ART.

BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WILL OWN SOME OF THESE THINGS, SOME OF THESE SUBJECTS IF THEY CAN SEE IT, SEE IT PLAY OUT.

SOME ARE VISUAL LEARNERS, SOME ARE AUDITORY LEARNERS.

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT WITH EVERY PROJECT THAT I DO, WHICH IS WHY ANYTHING THAT I WRITE BOOK-WISE I TRY TO TURN INTO DRAMATIC READINGS, I TRY TO TURN INTO A TV SHOW OR MOVIE.

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT'S A NEW ACCESS POINT FOR MANY PEOPLE.

SO FOR ME, IT'S -- IT GIVES ME THE EXPANSION OF THE STORY.

IT PUTS MORE VIEWERS.

IT GIVES MORE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE MY EXPERIENCE.

BUT ALSO THE CHANCE TO SEE HOW THAT EXPERIENCE PLAYS OUT AND HOW QUEER PEOPLE DON'T JUST EXIST WITH QUEER PEOPLE.

HOW WE FULLY EXIST WITH HETEROSEXUAL PARENTS, HETEROSEXUAL FAMILY, HETEROSEXUAL COUSINS, HETEROSEXUAL FRIENDS AND PROFESSORS.

WE EXIST JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES.

YOU GET TO SEE HOW YOU EXIST IN A WORLD WITH US VERSUS HOW WE EXIST IN A WORLD WITH YOU ON A VISUAL LEVEL.

AND SO I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE AGAIN, IT TAKES THE TEXT AND TURNS IT INTO SOMETHING AND CONNECTS THE TWO TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN GET THE FULL PICTURE OF THE STORY.

>> AS WE'RE WRAPPING UP THIS CONVERSATION, AND I WISH -- I'D LOVE TO TALK TO YOU FOR HOURS ABOUT ALL OF IT.

BUT WE HAVE SOME TIME LIMITS HERE.

LET ME COME BACK TO WHAT I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION.

AND THAT IS DECEMBER 1st BEING WORLD AIDS DAY.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO REFLECT, POWERFULLY REFLECT, ON AIDS?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, HIV AND AIDS IS SOMETHING I'M VERY, VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT.

AS SOMEONE WHO IS HIV POSITIVE, YOU KNOW, I RECOGNIZE THAT HIV HAS NEVER LEFT MY COMMUNITY.

IT HAS NEVER LEFT BLACK COMMUNITY.

AND IT STILL AFFECTS ALL COMMUNITIES.

BECAUSE WHETHER PEOPLE KNOW IT OR NOT, YOU LIKELY KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS LIVING WITH HIV, EVEN IF THEY HAVEN'T PUBLICLY STATED IT.

YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS AM REMINDING PEOPLE OF THAT, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU'LL HEAR THEM MAKE SOME CRASS COMMENTS.

IT'S LIKE, YOU MAY BE SITTING AT A TABLE WITH SOMEONE WHO IS QUIETLY LIVING THROUGH THAT.

AND YOUR STATEMENTS ARE THE REASON THAT THEY DON'T PUBLICLY SAY OR DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH SHARING THAT INFORMATION.

HIV IS STILL AT EPIDEMIC LEVELS WITHIN BLACK QUEER COMMUNITY, WITHIN THE LATINX COMMUNITY, THE LATIN QUEER X, EVEN WOMEN AS THEY MAKE UP THE LARGEST DEFINITELY GRAPHIC OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED, ESPECIALLY NEW DIAGNOSIS.

WORLD AIDS DAY, IT'S ONE, TO REMEMBER ALL WE HAVE LOST IN THIS STRUGGLE AGAINST IT.

BUT IT'S ALSO A DAY WHERE WE CAN ACKNOWLEDGE HOW FAR WE'VE COME AND DISCUSS WHERE WE STILL NEED TO GO IF WE ARE EVER GOING TO GET TO THIS PLACE BY 2030, I BELIEVE IS WHAT THEY SAID THEY WANT TO END THE EPIDEMIC.

BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO GET THERE, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO TAKE -- I HATE TO SAY IT, IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVING TO FINALLY DO WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IN 1981.

THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS BACK THEN.

AND I THINK WATCHING HOW QUICKLY A VACCINE WAS ABLE TO BE CREATED FOR COVID IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT COULD GIVE PEOPLE LIVING WITH HIV HOPE.

BECAUSE IF WE PUT THAT MUCH EFFORT INTO HIV, WHETHER IT'S INJECTABLES, WHETHER IT'S A CURE, WE COULD GET TO THAT PLACE, RIGHT?

SO I THINK EVEN SEEING HOW FAST SCIENCE CAN MOVE WHEN SCIENCE NEEDS TO MOVE GIVES US A LITTLE BIT OF HOPE.

BECAUSE NOW IT IS ON US TO PRESSURE SCIENCE TO SAY, WE HAVE BEEN HERE FOR 40 YEARS, IT IS TIME WE MOVE.

AND SO THAT IS WHAT WORLD AIDS DAY MEANS TO ME, AND I'M VERY HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN START TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS ON A PUBLIC LEVEL OF, WHAT ARE OUR NEXT STEPS, AND CAN WE INVEST IN SCIENCE FINALLY MAKING THAT MOVE?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, AS YOU MENTIONED, FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE, AIDS HAS NOT GONE AWAY.

>> IT HAS NOT.

>> PERHAPS IT'S NOT IN THE HEADLINES ANYMORE, IT HAS NOT GONE AWAY.

I'VE GOT A MINUTE LEFT.

I'M GOING TO ASK HOPEFULLY A QUESTION YOU CAN ANSWER IN A MINUTE.

GOING BACK TO WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC?

ARE WE, ARE YOU SEEING POSITIVE CHANGES THAT WILL HELP YOUNG ADULTS WHO ARE EXPERIENCING THE SAME THINGS YOU EXPERIENCED IN YOUR LIFE?

>> YES.

I REMAIN OPTIMISTIC.

PRIMARILY BECAUSE I WATCHED THEM REALLY, REALLY HAVE LANGUAGE AND RESOURCES THAT I DIDN'T.

I WATCHED THEM BE ABLE TO KNOW THEIR PRONOUNS, TO UNDERSTAND THEIR SEXUALITY, UNDERSTAND THEIR GENDER, TALK TO THEIR PARENTS ABOUT IT, BE ABLE TO SCHOOL THEIR PARENTS ABOUT IT.

I'M WATCHING THEM AS THE BOOKS ARE BEING BANNED NOT BE SILENT ABOUT THEIR FIGHT.

>> THINGS YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T -- IF I WAS 15 AND A BOOK GOT PULLED FROM MY SCHOOL, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WOULD HAVE HAD THE WHEREWITHAL TO PETITION, TO PROTEST.

>> AGAIN, I DIDN'T GIVE YOU ENOUGH TIME, I APOLOGIZE.

>> NO, IT'S OKAY.

>> I APPRECIATE YOUR SPENDING TIME WITH US, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING WITH YOU AGAIN.